I have covered the “why?” angle enough I think, and I still can’t come to grips with any scenario by any party that makes obvious sense to me. Thus, it probably is more relevant to think about the “what now” scenarios than the “why the hell……? ” questions.
If EMC wins the battle and buys Data Domain, here are positives:
1. They keep it out of the hands of arch-enemy NetApp (right or wrong is not the point).
2. They become the 800lb gorilla in whatever the dedupe backup target market is, and what it will be. They will get first and last look, and that is good for them as they have a sales force that has historically proven successful when they can control the sales process. As long as people are interested in buying dedupe (again, right or wrong is not the point), it will be impossible to bypass EMC in the process.
3. EMC will be able to market themselves as the king of all things dedupe, and as such will be able to position themselves as the “solution” provider regardless of the implementation and application. Want it at the source? Avamar. Want it as a target? Data Domain. Want it from someone else? Quantum, Falconstor, and lord knows how many others. You want dedupe? We have dedupe, baby.
4. EMC doesn’t do much in the pure lower midmarket outside of Dell, historically, and Data Domain boxes, for all their yapping to the contrary, are sold into environments where it could make for a compelling “surround” strategy. EMC sits in the core with big Symms, NetApp is all over the place with their systems, and EMC could come in with a surrounding DD product set aimed at first stealing % of spend from NetApp, and second, trying to kill them by making a primary play at the NetApp market.
5. I can’t think of another overt positive other than they get to brag that they beat NetApp in the deal – unless the deal becomes an albatross, which is entirely possible (if not probable).
The Negatives for EMC winning;
1. Huge amount of dough to spend and very hard to show a positive return on the investment in any reasonable time frame in my estimation. They do have the cash, but it’s still a huge bite.
2. Which one do I sell? It’s already an issue, and this will compound it. There will be much cloudiness before all see the light. Unless you are a distributor, absolute focus is required for victory, and how that can happen here is not clear at all.
3. The confusion and chaos will make it relatively easy for others to FUD the giant, which is a lovely turn of events. “Weren’t they just in here telling you to buy Avamar, or was it the Quantum box, or the FALC system? Now they want you to buy this one. I see. Well, they sure are committed….”
4. This may get them downmarket, but it sure ain’t going to help them seal up the play at their core market: the high end. The real competitive threat seems to be if/when IBM, HP, or HDS gets into the game with a product geared right at the Symm market as a means of disrupting the flow inside these critical accounts. In this game, it seems the value/risk/reward is NOT at selling a million small boxes, it seems to me to be able to offer/protect the much fewer but massively critically profitable larger account deals. This is what Data Domain and NetApp both covet – but this move doesn’t help EMC here. What happens when old friend Dave Donatelli, who already has a Sepaton relationship, decides to really push them right at the heart of EMC? EMC has no answer. (Ironically, when I suggested to Dave several years ago that a play in this space at the high end would be pure accretive profits and an excellent defensive strategy to boot, he saw it differently. Now, at HP, one would imagine he may reconsider that position – only from a server perspective of course.). The high end is the battle ground for this space in the value acceleration game – if HDS or someone else gets into those big Symm accounts with a big iron solution to this very real problem, it will be a huge opportunity cost and open up the possibilities of legitimate competition in the installed base. This is a giant risk as I see it, and one that can’t be addressed with any of EMC’s current lineup, including Data Domain.
5. EMC still sells core storage products based on CAPACITY – and this whole play is contra-capacity. The reason DD had a business at all began with the simple fact that the PROBLEM being solved (i.e., one that someone will actually pay money for) was one of physics – there simply were no more minutes in the 24 hour day and as soon as it took 24 hours + to complete a backup, I have a problem – and it is time. DD’s dedupe made the ECONOMICS of disk capacity work to enable a target that solved the real problem (time) without bankrupting the system. Guess what? Those economics are no longer the same. Disk capacity is effectively free – thus, there is no real value in dedupe if the only problem you are attempting to solve is TIME that you are given by backing up to disk. Capacity is no longer a truly valid metric, because I can buy 100 TB of disk for $10,000 today – so why would I pay $80,000 (or more) for 100 TB of “virtual” capacity? The buzz will leave this market soon – because if it’s purely economic, the math doesn’t make sense anymore. Capacity is a stupid metric on either side of the equation at this point. The “problem” that was originally solved no longer requires dedupe to solve it – thus there had best be another problem that needs to be solved.
So, that means the only reason to buy DD or any other dedupe device is either that having duplicate data (which I am not advocating is good) causes OTHER problems beyond the cost/capacity argument. Too many boxes to manage, too many people to deal with too many boxes, etc. are completely legitimate problems. Having said that, can I not solve those issues by A: not backing up duplicate data (process changes meet common sense) and B: throwing cheap disk at the problem? Perhaps the real problem is that you simply can’t back up up enough fast enough even with disk – which is true in very large accounts. That is a totally legitimate problem – but not one solved by Data Domain (at least not yet). If the answer is that I need a ton of smaller Data Domain boxes, well, have I really solved any problem at all? If it cost me 5X the money versus being dumb and cheap, but only gets me 2x the benefit, did I buy myself anything? I’ll just buy cheapo raid arrays for 1/10th the cost of current Data Domain systems. Worse yet, I’ll go back to tape. Remembering what problem you are trying solve is often the first thing you overlook when things get excitable.
EMC sells most effectively to very large customers, but this move would not help them there. Instead, it would spread the market to smaller customers which is against the core competency of the company. This split personality syndrome could cause more problems internally than it solves. It is NOT an easy fix, no matter what.
Positives for NetApp if they win:
1. While many have commented that they think EMC has more synergy with DD than NetApp, I disagree. If they do get it, all numbers aside, they have the opportunity to shore up the midmarket storage space for primary and backup targeted devices. They will inevitably bridge both worlds and, all said and done, will have the opportunity to own the landscape – for as long as there is value to be derived from that landscape.
2. NetApp proved that once the box is in, they can make lots of money selling add-on software function/features to that box – probably better than anyone in history. They have maintained 63% gross margins on a product that at the conceptual level, is 20 years old. Brilliant. If they can do the same for the DD world, they will effectively eliminate others who want to grab the same footprint, and at least have the opportunity to repeat their previous success. The key factor is total domination of the footprint. They would need thousands upon thousands of new customers for the DD product set, and they need them really, really fast.
3. They have a chance, if they go full bore right away, to keep EMC and others off balance – and to dominate this landscape.
4. It will definitely (right or wrong) put NetApp on the top of the watch list, if for nothing other than beating EMC in this deal. Of course, that will shine the spotlight on every move they make unlike any they have ever experienced before. This is a BIG deal for NetApp.
Negatives for NetApp;
1. Everything I (and others) have already stated.
2. See 1. This is super high-risk. The deal went from $750M cash – roughly 20% and stock to what will end up being at least $2B all cash. Will or can NetApp really afford to lose 50%+ of its operating cash? If EMC is playing them, this is pure brilliance, as it will effectively mean NetApp won’t be able to do any other deals of substance, and thus will enable EMC to focus on a very specific target with a very specific set of moves.
Other Considerations:
1. EMC has opened up the door to let NetApp off the hook, which personally, I think is the best possible outcome for them. I would rather keep EMC distracted with DD and use it against them. This is a free pass from a potential huge problem – there are other, potentially more significant possibilities that exist for them. They can turn the tide on EMC and reverse the spotlight – and firmly put all the pressure of the move squarely in Hopkinton. They can even say “we knew EMC would react like this, we are brilliant!” This does NOT have to be about NetApp losing – quite the contrary. Although I think reality is that ego will dominate the deal from this point forward, I think it’s a lot like two idiots fighting over a girl even after the girl left the dance. They forgot what they were originally fighting about, and thus the potential benefits, but continue to beat the hell out of each other anyway. Everyone loses. Except the girl.
2. Is NetApp more or less attractive as an acquisition target with or without DD? I suggest they are more attractive without DD and the expense.
3. HP is going to buy someone. They will deal with the NAS space AND the dedupe space one way or another. HP is so big that small deals don’t move the dial. NetApp is big enough to move the dial, but not so big that it’s out of their buy range. It would almost double HP’s storage business overnight. In a consolidation era, size matters.
4. If EMC is playing NetApp to spend more money than the $1.5B, the move really is genius. At $2B, it makes a huge dent in NetApp’s cash position and severely restricts it from making other moves. It’s basically going to put them in an “all in” bet (for all you Texas Hold-em fans).
5. It’s interesting to see EMC reacting in this way. I’ve never seen it before. You would think the reason why they are doing it would be completely obvious to justify such a reaction, but I still don’t see it. It can’t be defensive – can it?
6. How great is it right now to be Exagrid in the mid/lower end market, or Sepaton on the high end? I don’t see how either does anything but get more valuable with all of this going on. Exagrid is adding customers at roughly 25% of the rate of Data Domain, with 1/25th the $ and people. (I made that up, but it’s probably not that far off). Sepaton doesn’t have the reach (without HP) but when they play at the high, high-end, they win. I gotta believe HP wakes up and puts some wood behind that arrow, and it wouldn’t even surprise me that HP (but not Donatelli!!) goes after it directly and buys up Sepaton to hit EMC where it really hurts. Actually, I like this idea, as it would also put direct value add on top of the HDS play that HDS would have no answer for, allowing HP to garner more leverage from the relationship. NetApp, or EMC could probably snap up Exagrid for a few gazillion bucks less and be in just as good a position to drive value as they would with Data Domain, truth be told. Once they focus on the real problem, the means of solving it are almost secondary. The battle will be won by having a bunch of sales people violently waving their swords in the same direction – not because one sword is better than another. If someone takes Sepaton (or if IBM really shows up with Diligent) to the high-end peak of power, there is NO WAY that EMC can ignore it for long, as they will have their very way of life attacked. I don’t think EMC can ever let that happen.
6A. Maybe EMC takes out DD AND Sepaton, and, why not, Exagrid too. No way it fails the DOJ monopoly test with all the other alternatives, but in reality, it gives them the entire market landscape. Still too much money, but that’s an interesting scenario.
7. I applaud Chuck Hollis for publishing all the comments to his rationalization of the deal, especially since they are all negative. Having said that, where are the true believers in the deal for either EMC or NetApp? I see lots of reasons why not, but very few reasons why. I’m a dope, but can everyone be blind? Sometimes the war becomes more important in the moment than the reason we fought to begin with. My guess is ego will propel the deal from this point far more than logic or reason, which is unfortunate.
8. No matter who loses the fight – Data Domain wins. So does dedupe and we’ll all be buying de-duped ice cream and pajamas just like we did with Sponge Bob. The noise will compel the masses to start deduping everything, which is just fine for an industry desperately looking for any reason to be interesting.
9. Either of these guys would find buying Isilon for $150-200M more in line with what they really need, and either ignore or compete in the dedupe space as they currently do. I see much more long term upside in having scale-out architectures that work universally regardless of the “application” of the target.
So, my takeaway after all that is that Dan W. should not react emotionally, and let EMC take it, because I don’t think either of them can make it a winner because the girl they are fighting over not only left the dance already, she was ugly. No offense Frank, you just became prom queen, but for all the wrong reasons!
Related posts:




In this blog I look beyond the obvious and try to find out why people and companies do what they do - and what it means for the rest of us.
blogs




Thanks Steve – thoughtful analysis.
What happens when dedupe and flash are combined? Does it offer a viable alternative to rotating media for primary storage?
Some data: Intel 80GB @ $650 = $8.12 / GB, WD 2TB @ $300 = $0.15 / GB
So flash is ~ 55x more expensive.
if seek time were zero, wouldn’t dedupe be suitable for primary storage?
If we get 20:1, dedupe improvement, double the data density (still around 35% for open systems as I recall), factor in energy savings, consider the server opportunity savings (increased server utilization when I/O delays reduced), then the economics shift.
RAID 6? Why if RAID 5 flash rebuild is fast. RAID 5? Not clear it’s the best approach either. And probably some other potential savings too such as compression.
Sure, not all data dedupes well. But it looks like enough could that deduped flash becomes a credible, cost effective primary storage consideration.
QTM licensed the Rocksoft dedupe IP to DDUP. Seems like EMC could use the dedupe IP for primary storage. I image EMC has a right of first refusal for QTM too. But if EMC buys DDUP, then it’s not clear that a QTM buy is important – other than to keep the IP away from others.
EMC’s purchase of DDUP could deprive competitors as you said, and exploit the combined DDUP & QTM IP for other purposes.
Steve:
How about you actually READ all of the comments on Chuck’s blog? Granted, I may be a small voice, but I’m not exactly sure how you could characterize my comments on Chuck’s blog as negative?
I see this as a great win for EMC. Expensive? Yes, but a win. I don’t necessarily disagree with some of your analysis here, though. I think you make some great points, and I need to go back and read all of it again. I think the issue of Donatelli is one that is hanging out there and could make things interesting for sure.
I’m not sure how exactly you’re expecting IBM (who has no product) or HDS (who’s parent company is too busy trying to make earth-mover and television building profitable) to compete with the V-Max. I am questioning some of the things EMC did with positioning the product, but it’s a smoking fast box with some huge potential, especially when FAST is released and they begin to phase out FC drives.
What, is IBM going to kill it with XIV? Is that a joke? Is HDS about to come out with the Hurricane and sweep them off the map? I mean, neither of these guys had arrays that were adequate competition for DMX-4, much less V-Max. I don’t see HDS acquiring any of these players making a difference. Has IBM’s acquisition of Diligent just stunned EMC and frozen them in their tracks with its outstanding execution and game-changing deployments? Ummm, not that I’ve seen.
I could be wrong, though.
Steve,
While most of your arguments make sense we of the chattering class have to stop comparing apples to oranges using the cost of a bare drive per TB against the cost of a DD box.
You maybe able to buy 1TB “nearline” drives for $169 at NewEgg that’s not really the cost of 1TB of storage. It’s the slot costs that make up most of the $$. EMC’s NY State price list, and don’t get me started on how badly the Albany bureaucrats negotiate, lists a DAE with 15 1TB drives at $28,414. That’s just a shelf no controller Etc. Even if a non-idiot could pay $19,000 that’s 7-8x the Newegg price. Total cost of a CX3 will be more like 10-15x.
For a backup target someone without an attachment to name brands could get an Infortrend 16 1TB drive array for about $7500 more like 3x bare drive cost.
Remembering that dedupe is really a software function the question is how much is that software worth to save cost of hardware, power, datacenter space and management overhead. I don’t have DD pricing handy to do a quick comparison but CommVault charges $3000/TB assuming 10:1 data reduction that’s less than the cost of a TB of Infortrend let alone Clariion.
- Howard.
PS: Looking forward to chatting at BD next week.
Here is my outlandish wonder… does EMC/NetApp have a larger range thought that instead of just traditional VTL that it’s about inline of primary? I’m guessing that inline dedup is pretty well locked up via patents. Would this allow them to move to inline primary storage dedup, rather than just post only? Having a inline primary storage method dramatically increases the value to where it’s only a moderately insane price rather than OMG crazy insane.
—-It’s a fantastic question! It is clear to me that de-dupe technology belongs, and will make it, to every step of the data contiuum – eventually. It is clear that the closer to the point of origin, the higher level of de-dupe occurs, and the greater downstream benefits can happen. NetApp absolutely knows this – which is why there overall success has been less precidated on pure capacity verses many others. It’s why they can maintain the margin structure they do. So, if either realizes that the key to “storage” moving forward (at least the key to extracting value $$$) is “less” is better, then there could very well be something to your argument that I hadn’t considered fully.
Having said that, if it were true, why not buy StorWize first and propogate from the other end of the spectrum? If “Primary” de-dupe occurs ubiquotously, I would argue there will be no need for secondary (backup) dedupe in the future.
Excellent thinking! —–Steve
There is a scenario where DD doesn’t win regardless. Netapp withdraws because of the EMC bid. EMC decides to withdraw as well. Stock price plummets and then Oracle (or some IP litigation firm) swoops in buys it all at $5/share and then starts asserting patent rights.
—-Ah, the lawyer card rears its ugly head! NetApp currently can’t withdraw – they have a definitive agreement. Only if EMC bids again can NetApp get out at this point. If somehow DD decided to walk from both, your scenario is viable, at which point the stock price would certainly plummet. It probably won’t plummet to $5/share based on this deal falling apart however – so some other things would have to happen for that to occur, in which case the vultures will certainly start circling. —- Steve
I have to agree with Mr. Marks here. First, I don’t know where you (and others) come off saying that DD is 6-9x just buying plain old disk. Yes, attaching DD to plain old disk makes it cost 6-9x more. But then you have dedupe. If you get 10:1, which is a very conservative ratio (IMHO), you’re back below the price of the original disk without it. If you get anything beyond 10:1, then it becomes significantly cheaper than the cheapest RAIDed disk out there.
To your question about why we did this in the first place, we did it because tape has really started sucking as a backup medium. It’s nearly impossible to keep an LTO-4/T-1000/TS1120 tape drive happy when backing up directly to it. You HAVE to stream it by doing D2D2T. Then people liked disk so much they wanted to put MORE on disk, but it was too expensive. Then dedupe came along, making disk affordable again.
And with dedupe came the idea of being able to replicate your backups — and you simply cannot do that in most environments without dedupe. (That is, unless you throw out the whole works and go with something like CDP or near-CDP, which I’m totally fine with, but the backup world moves in very slow increments.) Replicating your backups allows you to have an onsite and offsite copy without touching tape — beautimus. No more worrying about encryption and the loss of a tape needing to be reported on the news. Data’s onsite and offsite magically every day without anyone having to move it around. If you want to make a tape copy, do it at the remote site and never move those tapes — again no need to encrypt.
As to someone else’s comment, if EMC thinks they’re buying DD to get dedupe on primary storage, I’d say good luck with that. I hope they have better luck with it than they did trying to leverage the Avamar technology and put it inside the VTL as an answer to Data Domain. MAYBE they can get the really smart DD guys in a room and start from scratch, but like I said: good luck with that.
@ Charles Hockenbarger
I may be wrong, but I didn’t see him saying that IBM will come out with something that targets the Symms themselves. I felt he was saying that that they should get a dedupe target product (which is the subject of the post) that is aimed at that market (i.e. the really big datacenter). Right now, the IBM Protectier is twice the speed of DD’s fastest box, but it could be much faster if they go from their current two nodes to more nodes. HDS is pretty much product-less in this space since the IBM acquisition of Diligent. Hopefully they’ll straighten that out soon. (Hint: both FalconStor and SEPATON are available and both have the throughput and capacity to reach the Symm market. Why doesn’t someone acquire THEM?)
This deal is 100% about EMC stopping NTAP. NTAP had to understand that DDUP traded at $24 a year ago, so their $25 bid, while a high premium, was very likely to go up if EMC or anybody else piled on. Even $30 a share is only 25% over the year ago price. They had to know this was liklely to happen, and that a $57M breakup fee wouldn’t stop anybody. If they didn’t see it coming they need to fire their banker and their M&A guy. EMC jumped in not for any of the technology considerations mentioned here, but just to stop NTAP. Why? Because they can…
The sad thing is that nowadays EMC is dancing to NTAP’s tune, not just in NAS, but across the board. This is like the elephant that’s afraid of the mouse. Years ago EMC was afraid of Veritas at every turn, and now that looks absurd. Reacting to NTAP like this is only slightly less absurd. Fact is NTAP is a great outfit, but EMC dwarfs them. And NTAP, for all their positive attributes, ain’t exactly the greatest acquirer in the world. Odds are NTAP buys DDUP, and it evaporates in a couple years; I bet the integration goes sideways, the technology get’s old, the people leave, and EMC uses it’s three other dedupe products to beat them in the market. M&A is a low percentage game and NTAP is a weak player. So EMC doing this is pretty dumb in my mind, and diminishes them. Great leaders don’t react like this.
Fact is, EMC’s M&A program is broken and has been for a few years. Iomega?? That was their last big deal, and that was completely nuts. Before that you have to go back to VMware. EMC used to be a great acquirer. But all those people are gone, and now EMC hires a new M&A guy every year and buys odd little system management companies and goofy stuff like Iomega. We’re in the best “buy stuff cheap” market since 01, and they’re overpaying for stuff they already have, just to stop NTAP. Go figure.
Steve-
Do you think the government will try to block the EMC-Data Domain combination. NetApp thinks there is a lot of problems.
http://blogs.netapp.com/jay/2009/06/deduplicating-customer-choice.html
—–I’m no lawyer but I have trouble finding any real monopolistic claim for either party here. It’s not as if there aren’t a billion other solutions that sort of do de-dupe. I like NetApp’s aggressiveness on the subject, but need to understand more to convince me it could stand. Maybe I’m just not seeing the big picture. Great question. – Steve
Steve,
Please post on the antitrust issues. You’re our only hope.
—-First of all, I can’t be anyone’s only hope – for anything. Second, I don’t really get the anti-trust issues – I don’t really see any. Therefore, give me something to talk about and I’ll be happy too! — Steve